Double thirds... - Fingering?

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Postby 76-1144948098 » Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:37 pm

I can't figure out the fingering for doing legato double thirds. Anybody know? Thanks!
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Postby Dr. Bill Leland » Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:08 pm

Lina,

Do you mean Major, Minor and Chromatic Scales in double thirds, are just isolated passages?

The scale fingerings--with some differences--can be found in the Hanon, Pischna, and Dohnanyi exercises. Individual passages would have to be decided according to their own settings within the composition. Do you have a particular place in mind?

Dr. Bill L.
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Postby 76-1144948098 » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:46 pm

just a plain old major scale done in Double thirds. :)
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Postby Stretto » Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:32 pm

I am going to go out on a limb and embarrass myself a little by sounding clueless, but maybe others are wondering as well and also embarrassed to ask. Here's a question for the "Piano for Dummies" book:

What are double thirds and what does practicing scales in double thirds help to accomplish?

Also when practicing scales in double thirds, would you mean playing the notes in the thirds separately (melodically) or notes in the thirds being played together (harmonically) or both ways?

:D




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Postby Dr. Bill Leland » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:38 pm

Hi Stretto:

"Double Thirds"--not the most descriptive term in the world!--means playing a series of thirds (two notes a third apart played simultaneously) in one hand. "Double Notes" can mean thirds, sixths, fourths, or any other interval, but it's always two notes at once in the same hand.

Lina, fingerings for all the major and minor scales in double thirds follow a pattern similar to the regular scales in single notes: all major and minor scales have a 3-note group (fingers 1-2-3) and a 4-note group (1-2-3-4) every octave, although the groups start in different places due to the black/white key layout. Double thirds also have a 3-note and a 4-note group: 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, and then 1-2, 1-3, 2-4, 3-5. They also have to start in different places sometimes. So C major (starting on C-E) is 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, 1-2, 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, 1-3. Left hand is 5-3, 4-2, 3-1, 5-3, 4-2, 3-1, 2-1, 5-3. E-flat, e.g., has to start in a different position: r.h. 3-5, 1-2, 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, 1-3, 2-4, 3-5; l.h. 3-1, 5-3, 4-2, 3-1, 2-1, 5-3, 4-2, 3-1. And so on.

Bill.
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Postby 108-1121887355 » Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:03 am

Thanks for straightening that out - I was thinking I should retire. I kept thinking, if I were playing in thirds, how could I play 'double thirds"... in the same hand? Both hands, OK.

The fingering is pretty standard and usually marked in the music. Some of my students first find it in "The Spinning Song" by Ellmenerich. There is a Spooks song I get out at Halloween that also uses thirds. It sometimes takes some convincing to use the correct fingering on the thirds, I am told, "It is easier to use 1 and 2 on all of them". I remind them that they have five fingers on one hand and all five fingers need to be used. Also, if speed is needed, it is helped by the correct fingering.

:laugh:
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Postby Stretto » Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:55 pm

loveapiano wrote:It sometimes takes some convincing to use the correct fingering on the thirds, I am told, "It is easier to use 1 and 2 on all of them". I remind them that they have five fingers on one hand and all five fingers need to be used.

I like that about reminding students that "all five fingers need to be used". I'll have to keep that in mind. :)


Thanks, Dr. Leland, for the explanation on double thirds. I assumed that double thirds meant similarly to what you explained. I, too, first imagined "doubling thirds" in one hand which would be a chord I suppose or some other unusual conglomeration of notes. If you played hands together in a scale-like formation and "doubled-up" the thirds in some conglomeration in each hand, what would that be called?

I can picture you all rolling your eyes. - Just having fun with the term.

Well, if you all are practicing scales in double thirds, more power to ya! :)




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Postby 76-1144948098 » Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:15 pm

I didn't roll my eyes, but I giggled! :D Thankyou for the fingerings!

I was guessing it was something like that, but I wasn't sure. It's in the exam requirements for my Conservatory Canada Grade 8, and since I've been having some teacher trouble and have been searching for a new teacher, I didn't really have anybody to ask.
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Postby Dr. Bill Leland » Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:16 pm

After rolling my eyes I looked back down at the keyboard to reply: of course they are going to say "it's easier to use one and two" all the time--they are the strongest. Somewhere in the early years we have to start to insist that the outer sides of each hand be used and strengthened, unless everybody is going to be content staying in grade two or three all their lives. Double notes are incomparable for using and strengthening the fourth and fifth fingers--it doesn't have to be scales right away.

Bill L.
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Postby 108-1121887355 » Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:14 pm

I know why the students want to use 'one and two fingers' and that is why I remind them that they have 5 on each hand and all 'need a turn to play' Also have some exercises for 4 and 5 and use some in Dozen a Day. I start that very early on. I have more exercises for the older students, who may still have trouble with the 4th and 5th fingers espceially in a fast piece. :p
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Postby Stretto » Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:58 pm

Dr. Bill Leland wrote: . . . unless everybody is going to be content staying in grade two or three all their lives.

Bill L.

I would be! :) I love the simple song-like tunes that would be found in those levels. Now that it's been mentioned, I guess students do have things like 2-4, going to 3-5 consecutively or 1-3, 2-4 even early on and they do find it ackward and want to find a "way around" using those fingerings. I haven't had any students say they just want to use 1-2 all the time but they have come up with some unusual fingerings to avoid using 2-4 or 3-5 for example, 1-4 or 1-5 even on a third.

Well, I better go practice the double notes as like everyone else, my 4th and 5th fingers could use some help.




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Postby 108-1121887355 » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:16 pm

Bought a new book Hanon, Burgmuller and Czerny all in one and one of the first things I saw was "double thirds"! Don't recall that term before and now after our discussion, here it is!

My students don't ask to use 1 and 2 , they just do! I have some discussions about fingering and my older girls say they can play it just as well "their' way. (Usually 12 and 13)( 5 is not an option!) This is where exercise books come in! This new book looks good as not called 'exercises" but 'piano pieces for technique and musicality". I like that.

Yesterday a bright just 9 year old boy questioned me on some fingering and I showed him the phrase mark indicating legato and if he did not use that fingering, it would not be legato. He thought a minute - probably trying to figure another way to do it, and then said OK. We also discussed that the composer wanted that particular sound and as he has written some pieces, he understood.

He has asked me to play his pieces for him and I am now wise to the fact that he can pick it up VERY easily when I do and he is not reading all the notes. His 6 yo brother is reading now and keeps his eyes right on the book. Next level of music plus some work on my part should get him to read with confidence. We talked about what senses one uses when playing, and how we need them all. He is a good kid and musically talented but his mind is going a mile a minute on 'everything' all at once. I hope with some summer lessons, and less stress with homework, etc., we can accomplish a lot.

:)
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Re: Double thirds... - Fingering?

Postby Hglrfdom » Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:32 pm

Thank you so much for the fingering. I have been asking around all year but nobody knows the fingering.

Thank you X 1,000,000

-Craig Davis
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