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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:46 pm
by Tranquillo
This topic concerns a number of things

I was at a lesson the other night and having a discussion (almost a debate!) with my piano teacher.

In my highschool there are a number of young people that dont have an a sensitivity or an appreciation or an 'ear' to classical music. The MUSIC teacher in my highschool (not my private piano teacher) restricts music students to music that suits them as an audience. She does not allow for classical or anything overly operatic on the stage ... her reason is because many pieces are long length and with operatic arias she says that the audience could 'laugh'.

My piano teacher is very much in opposition of this as he says that young people dont even know what classical music is and that they should be exposed to more of it.

The music teacher has said that we music students are 'educating them' by picking songs/pieces that are perhaps operatic with a rock beat or classical rocked up ... instead of giving them 'hardcore' classical ... give them a blending thing... and consider your audience.

My piano teacher is offended and angered by the fact that I cannot play classical at concerts or public recitals pieces that I study with him.

At same time ... I wonder ... is that a bad thing? ...(european) Classical is like the 'it' music the fundamental ... at the same time there is classical music of different cultures that are worth looking into ... and music is so vast in style and genré ... should'nt we be exposed to everything? I do love classical very much ... but I also admire Jazz artists and 20th century ... Is it a problem that young people are not exposed to classical?

I suppose the right spot to put the topic would be in the young students, but I am interested to hear it from a teacher's prespective.
I'd like to hear what others think (parents, students) ...

PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:40 am
by Dr. John Zeigler - PEP Ed
Your comments here are somewhat reminiscent of the discussion we had in the "What Is Good Music?" thread (in Music Talk), the Board's longest. For myself, I always come down on the side of maximum exposure to "real" music of all sorts. I can see merit in both your piano teacher's and your music teacher's views, although my inclinations fall more along the lines of your piano teacher's. I suspect that, to some degree, the music teacher is right. Presenting students with Schoenberg or Wagner as their first exposure to classical music might be too much of a good thing. That said, there is a huge variety of easily-listened-to classical music of just about any ambiance one could want. Classical music need not be "unapproachable". As examples, let me cite the music in the film Fantasia (all real classical) or even the background music in many cartoons. People who have seen the old Bugs Bunny cartoon, What's Opera, Doc?, even get a liberal exposure to snippets of Wagner's Ring Cycle music, with the whole of the Ring Cycle boiled down to five minutes of cartoon. This shows that even something as "heavy" as Wagner can be made approachable. :D

In general, I would argue that people need to be exposed to real classical music (as well as other genres), even if the initial exposure is limited to the more easily appreciated works. The problem is finding the time, given all the other competing activities that people have and the other competing genres that music teachers should touch upon.




Edited By Dr. John Zeigler - PEP Editor on 1194624557

PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:02 pm
by Tranquillo
Yeah, I did read through most of the What is Good music thread and it does correlate to this topic here. That is true there is easier listening to classical ... most cliché pieces like Fur Elise, Beethovens 5th Symphony Pachelbel's Canon is reconisable to the audience.
At the same time in movies they watch have classical music in them. Her approach to 'rocking' the music up is quite strange to me ... because it 'kills' the classical music its not classical any longer it is rock.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:16 pm
by Stretto
For me in teaching piano, it's easy to get caught in a boat of thinking of how best to keep a young person's interest and stereotypically thinking the student probably is more interested and wants to play pop, rock, modern songs. I think youth might actually like playing classical piano pieces more because the quality of the sound can far surpass the quality of the sound of the arrangements in so many pop, rock songs - not that the pop, rock songs aren't good songs but I can't stand most piano arrangements of these, except for some good exceptions. I think a person better off learning to improvise favorite songs that weren't originally written for piano unless you have an arrangement that you find exceptionally appealing and that can vary from person to person in taste.

The trouble with me trying to pick rock or pop songs for students is there are so many, they may not even know the one's I pick even if they are recent. I've written in my information that is it up to students and parents to select and buy music that falls in the category of most recent popular music of the day that they want to learn as long as the lyrics and group aren't a negative influence. It gets me out of the loop of being expected to figure out what most recent music out there would interest a particular student.

So my dilemna is I'm giving youth pop, rock songs to learn on piano with horrible arrangements because that's the only arrangement I could find in their level of the song (even advanced arrangements, however I find unappealing too). So the poor students are learning piano with poorly written arrangments just in order to cater to the songs that I think that appeal to them - when these pieces however great they may be in their original version, the piano arrangements of these pieces just can't measure up to the quality of classical piano literature in the way it is written and sound. Although a student could probably create a better quality arrangement of a rock song as far as what appeals to them in sound personally by making up their own improvised version. I guess some of this does tie into the thread Dr. Zeigler mentioned on "good music".

A teacher could do well as I need to do more is "sell" youth on classical. Teachers should be having kids listen to and learn a wide variety of different styles of music rather than just stereotyping all young students as in "they probably all only will be interested if we do 'their' style"). Most teenagers I have asked around high school age what kind of music they listen to, what are their favorite songs, what is popular in their age group for music right now, they don't have a specific answer - they just listen to a variety of things, they don't seem to have chosen a set style or certain songs they stick with as favorites. Perhaps this is because there is so many many more choices of songs and types of music to listen to now.




Edited By Stretto on 1194744253

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:51 am
by Stretto
Dr. John Zeigler - PEP Editor wrote:Classical music need not be "unapproachable". As examples, let me cite the music in the film Fantasia (all real classical) or even the background music in many cartoons. People who have seen the old Bugs Bunny cartoon, What's Opera, Doc?, even get a liberal exposure to snippets of Wagner's Ring Cycle music, with the whole of the Ring Cycle boiled down to five minutes of cartoon. This shows that even something as "heavy" as Wagner can be made approachable. :D

In general, I would argue that people need to be exposed to real classical music (as well as other genres), even if the initial exposure is limited to the more easily appreciated works. The problem is finding the time, given all the other competing activities that people have and the other competing genres that music teachers should touch upon.

Funny that you mentioned the cartoons as I've often thought of starting a thread on the subject of classical music that accompanies the backround of cartoons, tv, and movies. With having small kids now, I never realized the classical music behind the cartoons (not sure about the newer cartoons) but for example, watch Tom and Jerry sometime - some of the backround music is solo piano and I've heard some famous classical piano works on there. Also, the cartoon, "Oswald", although more modern and most likely digitized, the backround music is "classical" style in sound - also "Little Bear". When I was little, then much of the children's music, for example, Disney especially some of the classic Disney songs like in Peter Pan, Bambi, Snow White, Cinderella - many songs to me seem more "classical" in style with orchestra, adult choirs, the way the soloists sang was closer to operatic style - there's just something different about the quality compared to more recent cartoon movies that may use more pop or country style, etc. not to say these aren't really great songs but listen to some classics, for example, Disney movies vs. more recent movies and you start hearing the difference. I never realized all the classical music I was listening to as a kid or at least leaning toward classical style via such avenues until an adult and realized it did have an influence on me in "training my ear" without even knowing it as a child.

What about movies, cartoons, tv shows, commercials, in the last decade? Do they have some classical music or music that leans toward classical style in them? Can anyone cite some examples? If so, youth are probably listening to classical music or classical in style in the backround of what they are watching and not even aware of it. But I think it still really influences the ear even passive listening.

Another thought, I used to really not like classical music as a teenager and would much rather play my favorite contemporary songs or old Broadway Hits, folk songs - I guess I did like playing classical music but couldn't stand listening to it for very long at a time because I felt it all starts sounding the same. But a music appreciation class in college really changed that. Once I understood some of the "behind the scenes" of the music, for example, the philosophies of the time period and how that influenced the music, the form the pieces were written in and why, about the composer, etc. I really started liking classical music and it helped it make so much more sense and it was more interesting to listen to if you had some things to listen for.

I think some music teachers in school are really doing a good job teaching about classical music from what some of my students and my kids tell me their learning in their music classes at school. For example, one 6th grader said she was learning in music at school about the differences between Baroque, Classical, Romantic, etc. The 5th graders at my childrens school go to a symphony performance as a field trip.

Your teacher has a good point about considering the audience perhaps if that audience is coming to a concert just for enjoyment or bought tickets to hear something specific as far as style but she's TEACHING not catering to an audience so should consider how she can influence the students as well toward listening and training their ear to enjoy a bigger variety. I've never been stuck in the mode of really only liking one style, for example, only liking classical, or only country because since I was a small child, I've listened to a wide variety of music. I can listen to old hymns, nursery rhymes, civil war tunes, folk tunes, jazz, country, pop, bluegrass, big band, polka, classical, songs from all the decades from the 1920's on, etc., etc. and not say "boring" because I started out listening to this much variety as a child and just continued on.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:30 am
by Stretto
As I mentioned in my first post, I've tried the mindset of "students will stay interested if they are playing music they want to learn" (in other words "their music"). I have in the past bent over backward trying to cater to what type of music that appealed to the student. This was especially true of the students around age 12 +. The more I have tried to cater to what music a young person might like especially in the way of pop and rock, the more uninterested in music and lessons the students became. All those students were probably uninterested to begin with but in my attempt to get them more interested I tried to pick music based on what is popular with young people. I think this approach backfired and in every case the students quit. I wonder if they might have continued had I kept a balance of variety and what I would find as good music, it wouldn't suprise me if they wouldn't have found they liked piano better. Have you ever noticed sometimes, the more you try to please someone, the more unhappy they become? I've quit trying so hard to cater to students this way and try to assign a variety.

Becibu,

What would you consider the ideal for youth that are in music class at school or taking lessons as far as what music teachers should teach or assign?




Edited By Stretto on 1194853161

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:15 am
by Tranquillo
A teacher could do well as I need to do more is "sell" youth on classical. Teachers should be having kids listen to and learn a wide variety of different styles of music rather than just stereotyping all young students as in "they probably all only will be interested if we do 'their' style"). Most teenagers I have asked around high school age what kind of music they listen to, what are their favorite songs, what is popular in their age group for music right now, they don't have a specific answer - they just listen to a variety of things, they don't seem to have chosen a set style or certain songs they stick with as favorites. Perhaps this is because there is so many many more choices of songs and types of music to listen to now.


The thing is with youth today there isnt really a gerneralization with what they may listen to. ... Youth want to be different from the crowd be indivduals but at the same time have a sense of belonging and belong to a group. The 'tennybopper' may listen to pop artists such as : Hilary Duff, Jesse McCartney, Delta Goodrem, Vannessa Calton.
On the other hand the 'gangsta' would likely listen to Hip Hop and RnB (or urban contempory) artists such as: Jennifer Lopez, Mariah Carey and Ashanti. One in the punk movement would likely listen to Greenday, and The Outcasts. I could go on about the subcultures and musical influences of youth ...
My point is that there is much variety in youth ... and many youths either belong to a subculture or dont, if they dont they would still be influenced through a number of factors, their friends that they hang around with. Youths often hang around in groups with friends of similar interests and hobbies. This close association of each other, this rubbing of shoulders causes them to be greatly influenced by their associates. Even through that, there is some sort of I guess you could say 'subculture formed'.
As you said there are many different styles and popular culture comes from all over the world ... not just the country you are living in. In the 20th century there was this exposure in America , blending American Music with African ... we get Jazz then. Same thing today.
The thing is at the same time there are those teachers that show resistance to teaching things that aren't the typical classical repetoire. Obviously that is not you, you sound like a cool teacher Stretto! :cool:

So my dilemna is I'm giving youth pop, rock songs to learn on piano with horrible arrangements because that's the only arrangement I could find in their level of the song (even advanced arrangements, however I find unappealing too). So the poor students are learning piano with poorly written arrangments just in order to cater to the songs that I think that appeal to them - when these pieces however great they may be in their original version, the piano arrangements of these pieces just can't measure up to the quality of classical piano literature in the way it is written and sound.


That is so true! There arent as many people that listen to classcal these days, and they are the ones that are missing out. The problem is, as I said earlier through my music teacher they are not sensitive to this music, they have no appreciation for such fine music. As performing music students im my school there are a few of us that would like to do pieces of certain repertoire that we are not 'allowed' to do because we need to consider our audience.

Stretto, your last remark of what students like listening to, have you tried narrowing down to certain genrés, styles, artists, songs?
Just wondering, have you had any students that seem to balk with classical music, do some feel that it is too 'serious' or 'boring' music?




Edited By Becibu on 1194990203

PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:51 am
by Tranquillo
Stretto wrote:As I mentioned in my first post, I've tried the mindset of "students will stay interested if they are playing music they want to learn" (in other words "their music"). I have in the past bent over backward trying to cater to what type of music that appealed to the student. This was especially true of the students around age 12 +. The more I have tried to cater to what music a young person might like especially in the way of pop and rock, the more uninterested in music and lessons the students became. All those students were probably uninterested to begin with but in my attempt to get them more interested I tried to pick music based on what is popular with young people. I think this approach backfired and in every case the students quit. I wonder if they might have continued had I kept a balance of variety and what I would find as good music, it wouldn't suprise me if they wouldn't have found they liked piano better. Have you ever noticed sometimes, the more you try to please someone, the more unhappy they become? I've quit trying so hard to cater to students this way and try to assign a variety.

Becibu,

What would you consider the ideal for youth that are in music class at school or taking lessons as far as what music teachers should teach or assign?


Oh I didnt see your second post!

You sound like a brilliant teacher tailoring 'their ways' ... those who quit ... did they give a good reason? ???

One of my friends teaches and she bases her philospy of teaching on variety and much of it. The problem is that many youths today are 'limited' or 'restricted' to what they listen to. Being exposed and aware is important is a number of ways, music exposure ... is like food ... why not try a gelato instead of plain old ice cream, or meat balls instead of sausages? You dont have to 'like' it but atleast try it ... you might end up liking it! Sadly, youths today dont like to try ... or to 'taste' what is good. They are confined to what they like ... then, you feed them what they like the plain ice cream and they still don't appreciate it!
(I'm sorry ... I keep going back to that analogy ) :)

They could be baulking for a number of reasons. I initially thought that it could be a youth thing ... there is a stage in life in adolescent were hyouths get ignorant, thinking that they know everything, I know I went through that stage and many parents tell me how youths do feel that they know everything. So with music they could feel as though you are doing music that 'belongs to them'. I am no psychologist ... so dont trust me! It is only a guess, but with that pocessing of that they feel is 'their's' ... it can be hard to break that bond.
At the same time there was a music teacher that I had at school last year and she was a walking Encyclopedia! She knew everything from Medieval to Today! And not just that but music of foreign areas. She got the respect of all the students and what the students felt were theirs was also 'hers'. Just wondering, not meaning to be insulting or anything but are you up to date with the music scene today in regards to youth. I am not ... cast myself out years ago.


[/quote]What would you consider the ideal for youth that are in music class at school or taking lessons as far as what music teachers should teach or assign?[quote]

I would say in a music class there would be a few things that I have enjoyed last year. Learning the history of rock and understanding what was happening in society as well as focusing on certian artists and bands was very much interesting. We touched on rock through the decades, how music evolved and how people got their ideas.
The 'ideal music'sounds hard to put a finger on it because music is so varied, as you said I solemnly agree a variety is importance. But to start on something, I would say maybe you can give you students options but narrow it down maybe to 3 or 4 songs and get them to choose one out of the three of four songs. If you open it up to anything ... in my experience many students keep changing their minds and have a hard time making up decisions.
Ofcourse, introducing them to the classics is nice... I thought maybe if you can provide novelty facts along the way on a certain composer they are working on eg. Bach had travelled many miles just to listen to music and be exposed.
I'll have to think about it ... I'll get back to you :;):




Edited By Becibu on 1194990508

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:44 am
by Tranquillo
Stretto wrote:Becibu,

What would you consider the ideal for youth that are in music class at school or taking lessons as far as what music teachers should teach or assign?

I thought about this more today ... I reflected upon last years music lessons in school and it made me realise ... no matter how hard you try sometimes teens wont bother. Last year I had an exceptional music teacher at school. She had a great extensive knowledge about music, from medieveal to cultural to what 'modern' music teens listen to. You mention any band to her she'll be able to recall songs and describe it with detail! She knew everything and anything about music there was little she didnt know!
What she did last year was topic studies on styles one included rock. Many students in the class room listened to rock ... but none really enjoyed 'studying' ... only listening to it. Everyone hated the history of it ... (except for some) ...
:;): .
I think there wasnt just one contributing reason, there are many.
1. It seemed they just wanted to play, nothing specific, just play on the instruments
2. None took music as a serious subject ... they just wanted to play!
3. They did not feel the need to learn all this stuff ... some regarded it as useless.

On the other hand the music teacher also introduced Jazz to the class and we did it as a topic study. This was really more of an exposure many students just didnt see the need for being exposed, let alone realise it. When it came to doing a song as an ensemble they often choose songs that werent jazz, then realised that it wasnt jazz. Finally when it came down to what songs can they do ... being presented with a number of options one student exclaimed "these songs are weird."
This occured to me that at this age students do need to be 'educated' as the other music teacher (this year), has said.
This is such a complicated topic, sorry Stretto, havent been able to give a proper 'What' answer ...
But upon these reflections I have relised that this young students havent exactly cultivated that 'mature ear' ... this is a great contrast when music students only 2 years older gain an appreciation for many genrés ... because they as individuals mature. (as it seems)
Sorry I will need to look into it Stretto. A bit more ... evauate it better than give out memories and anecdotes.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:54 am
by Tranquillo
Just read an article
http://www.nytimes.com/2007....Michael

... relates to exposure to classical for young children

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:27 am
by Dr. John Zeigler - PEP Ed
Stretto wrote:I think youth might actually like playing classical piano pieces more because the quality of the sound can far surpass the quality of the sound of the arrangements in so many pop, rock songs - not that the pop, rock songs aren't good songs but I can't stand most piano arrangements of these, except for some good exceptions. I think a person better off learning to improvise favorite songs that weren't originally written for piano unless you have an arrangement that you find exceptionally appealing and that can vary from person to person in taste.


So my dilemna is I'm giving youth pop, rock songs to learn on piano with horrible arrangements because that's the only arrangement I could find in their level of the song (even advanced arrangements, however I find unappealing too). So the poor students are learning piano with poorly written arrangments just in order to cater to the songs that I think that appeal to them - when these pieces however great they may be in their original version, the piano arrangements of these pieces just can't measure up to the quality of classical piano literature in the way it is written and sound.

The idea that the quality of piano arrangements for other genres is so poor that it might keep teachers from assigning much in these genres is something I hadn't thought about. I guess I always assumed that teachers' assignments reflected their own training and a desire to expose students to well-composed music. I don't know why the arranging of popular music for piano is so poor. Perhaps it reflects, to some degree, limitations in the music itself. I don't know much about arranging for students; I wish I could get some teacher to write on PEP on that subject. (hint, hint) :)

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:03 am
by Dr. John Zeigler - PEP Ed
There are a couple of radio programs that are very valuable for exploring classical music. The first, more for adults but valuable for kids too, is the late Karl Haas' Adventures in Good Music program. Although few stations now carry it, since new programs are no longer being made, you can find a streaming Internet version at the link I've provided. Highly recommended!

For kids, it's hard to beat Classics for Kids, both the web site and the radio program. You can find links to streaming Internet radio of the programs on the site. It has lots of valuable activities and information for kids about classical music and composers. We've linked it for a long time on our Just for Kids page.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:08 pm
by Tranquillo
Just checked out classics for kids ... cool site! As far as kids, in my primary school (elementary) I can recall having an exposure to classical in school, we listened to Peter and the Wolf and stomped to the music, we played on percussion instruments and took turns playing on them.
I just relised its until we get to the highschool years that all is lost ... Not many teens listen to classical it is really a rare taste amongst that group.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:31 am
by Stretto
Becibu,
Thanks for bringing up this topic. This is an interesting discussion. I went to a meeting of a local music teacher's club and a group of about 10 high school girls sang. The group was formed to give students a fun way to practice harmony. They sang all "oldies" and the teacher said the girls liked the "oldies" songs the best and the teacher said she was glad the girls liked the "oldies" because that's what she liked, many of the songs were from the 50's, and also some barbershop style. The girls did quite well and appeared to really be having fun.

Dr. Zeigler,
I'm not sure what it is about many piano arrangements of pop pieces I don't think sound that great. They are just missing something in quality. I'll have to think some more as to why piano arrangements of pop music don't always sound so good to me. We talked about depth and texture before in the "good music" thread - maybe that's missing as compared to a vocalist with a band? I think many of the simpler versions, for example, supplemental pop books of methods or ones written for easy piano are just pretty basic, simple, not real eventful rhythms that accompany the tune. We're probably used to more interest rhythmically in pop music. If there is depth to an arrangement of a pop piece like in an arrangement for advanced pianists, it seems to me heavy chords with a lot of "embellishment" or "flourishes" stuck between parts of the main tune. It's like a fancy lace shirt when you just want a comfortable cotton t-shirt. Or I would compare it to a mini electric guitar solo between every single little break in the lyrics. I really like some pop songs just not always the arrangements of them. I think it's too simplistic of rhythmical interest in the arrangements of chords that go with the melody or the other I described. We're really used to syncopated rhythms that accompany vocal pop, rock, country songs which would involve more difficulty in reading rhythms that haven't been taught by certain levels and also more difficulty in writing those rhythms out. If students improvised versions of their favorite songs, they could add all the rhythm they wanted as their basing it on ear and how they're used to hearing the rhythms and other sounds not on trying to read it. Also, in the melody alone, the singing voice can do a lot more complex rhythmically that can be more tricky to read written out in notation form (let alone try to write out) so the tunes are watered down rhythmically as well sometimes. Well, it would be easy to get side-tracked on the topic with this alone as I've started to do. But in keeping with the topic, it's what I meant by trying to pick popular songs that would appeal to teens. Now that I think about it I learned quite a few pop songs as a teen on piano that I liked but mostly from books that were written with a vocal part so I was learning the accompany part for piano. Perhaps that's a better way to go about learning pop songs for piano than finding a piano solo arrangement.
(Sorry, Dr. Zeigler, I've not done any arranging of music for students outside of a melody and basic chords).

Also, Becibu, I read the article and thought it was funny. I got to thinking about when I was a teen that even though I liked for example, civil war songs or children's songs, I would have never gone around announcing it to my peers! So although teens might like some other music they probably stick with discussing what's popular among their peers - that's what I did. I didn't listen to a ton of mainstream music that was popular when I was in high school but I listened to or heard enough of the music that was popular to know what groups and songs friends and kids at school were talking about. As I mentioned, I didn't like classical as a teen but when younger and as a teen no adult like parents or piano teachers or school teachers ever did much directly to try to spark my interest in it - for example, taking me to concerts, saying hey, "listen to this - isn't it cool!", or piano teacher saying, "Here's some neat pieces you might like to choose from" (on classical). Although in piano lessons I played through some classical pieces in John Thompson's level 4 book and another book I had for intermediate level of a hodgepodge of classical piano and arrangements of famous symphony or opera music, but the Thompson book I just went through in order, the other classical book I just choose pieces on my own so outside of my own initative, no adult as I mentioned like a parent or teacher formally helped try to interest me in classical or specific classical pieces. My parents had a big variety of music at home but very little classical and the few records were categorized as my "mom's records" that my aunt gave her. Oh yes, now my brain is jogged that my parents played classical records on the stereo occasionally after I went to bed and a few times I would wake up hearing it and go out and ask them to turn it off because I thought it sounded "scarey" :) . So there you go, my parents didn't make an effort to get me excited about classical or play it for me growing up and saved it for after we went to bed. That's part of my point that adults make too much assumption that kids and teens won't like classical and find it boring sort of like the subject of science so maybe some adults and parents categorize it and stereo-type classical when kids are young so kids automatically already assume classical is stuffy and boring.

I think adults like teachers and parents can sometimes get kids and teens excited about an otherwise boring subject if the parent or teacher is enthused. For example, my husband gets my kids interested in everyday science around them and he is so excited himself, they can't help but get excited. For example, he'll find a website that shows all the planets in space and say to the kids, "hey guys, come look and see what I found!!" They come running and he talks so enthusiastically. That's what teachers and parents should do with music, for example if it's classical they want to spark interest in. Again, too may grown-ups do too much assuming what kids will like and not like. Would anyone agree or disagree?




Edited By Stretto on 1195073136

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:25 pm
by Stretto
I added some more to my last post so if anyone's interested and already read my last post, they may want to go back and read toward the end.