Non-u.s. lessons - Differences and strengths

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Postby Tranquillo » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:02 am

mirjam wrote:Well, I cannot speak for Europe, but it's a fact that in The Netherlands Alfred's Basic Piano and Hal Leonard piano method are mainly used. Of course, these methods talk about intervals, but intervallic reading, like found in Celebrate piano or Music Tree isn't known here (no one uses these methods). A 'modern' Dutch piano method that just came out again starts in middle c-position and step by step new notes are added. It seems to me that teachers (in general) just use the methods they know and 'since the children do like Alfred', why bother looking for other things?

Of course, there are wonderful teachers out here. But I think lots of teachers choose the easy way. ''Thinking about the pedagogy behind the method? Why? It 'works', doesn't it?''
But, reading all kinds of forums, there are a lot of teachers in the U.S. that will say the same too. But I think, in general, in U.S. and Canada there are a lot people who are thinking about HOW to teach, HOW to read music, HOW to learn to be a better listener, instead of just thinking WHAT to teach, and because the U.S. is so big, it's easy to 'spread the word'. Of course, there are people in Europe who do the same, and in The Netherlands at this moment there are new and different programmes with teachers looking for the most effective way of teaching and learning. But because of all the different languages we have in Europe I guess these things are less 'visible' for the teachers around.

The strange thing is: reading all the U.S. boards around I think teachers in The Netherlands are more professional, more educated, there is no way a teacher will call himself a 'teacher' and run a professional studio when being at 'advanced' level themselves. Advanced level is for students! I read in forums there are a lot of teachers that are in business without having a professional education. Of course we have those teachers here to, but they will operate in the background, and not having many students. And certainly not ask questions in a forum! But maybe I interpreted those posts wrong?

And yes, you were right, teaching is more 'back to basic' here, as is life in general here! :laugh:

I still have a lot of things to add! To be continued!

Mirjam

Such an intriguing post. Thanks Mirjim.

Well, I cannot speak for Europe, but it's a fact that in The Netherlands Alfred's Basic Piano and Hal Leonard piano method are mainly used. Of course, these methods talk about intervals, but intervallic reading, like found in Celebrate piano or Music Tree isn't known here (no one uses these methods). A 'modern' Dutch piano method that just came out again starts in middle c-position and step by step new notes are added. It seems to me that teachers (in general) just use the methods they know and 'since the children do like Alfred', why bother looking for other things?


I am quite intrigued at times with method books. In Australia many teachers use method books in the early stages of a students learning then quickly get into grade work or piano literature. Even the U.S way what do teachers do? In the Netherlands how long do you teach according to method books? Is it taught through orderly going into the method step by step or are the pieces just there as a means of what to work on and the teacher devises his/her own method? (am I making sense?)

Of course, there are wonderful teachers out here. But I think lots of teachers choose the easy way. ''Thinking about the pedagogy behind the method? Why? It 'works', doesn't it?''
But, reading all kinds of forums, there are a lot of teachers in the U.S. that will say the same too. But I think, in general, in U.S. and Canada there are a lot people who are thinking about HOW to teach, HOW to read music, HOW to learn to be a better listener, instead of just thinking WHAT to teach, and because the U.S. is so big, it's easy to 'spread the word'. Of course, there are people in Europe who do the same, and in The Netherlands at this moment there are new and different programmes with teachers looking for the most effective way of teaching and learning. But because of all the different languages we have in Europe I guess these things are less 'visible' for the teachers around.


Cool! ... So what are these programs aimed at? How do they tell such content? In Australia I know there are some three day courses for teachers - workshops. These courses happen often in conservatoriums. They are designed to update teachers on innovative ways of teaching. Also, WHAT content in private lessons is not taught and HOW it should be taught.

The strange thing is: reading all the U.S. boards around I think teachers in The Netherlands are more professional, more educated, there is no way a teacher will call himself a 'teacher' and run a professional studio when being at 'advanced' level themselves. Advanced level is for students! I read in forums there are a lot of teachers that are in business without having a professional education. Of course we have those teachers here to, but they will operate in the background, and not having many students. And certainly not ask questions in a forum! But maybe I interpreted those posts wrong?


Just wondering does that mean that all teachers in the Netherlands get a certain certificate or credetial to be a teacher? What is a proffessional education? Here in Australia teachers in schools teaching music MUST have do in it through university studies. They MUST have a degree or some sort of approved qualification in teaching as well as music to teach in a school.
However private lessons are run differently. Often, just by the price of the teacher you can tell if they are really 'proffesional' or not. Some here in Australia teach at $11/hr piano and that is outragrously below what most (qualified) teachers charge. Even so ... different private teachers have different qualifiacations.
So what do you call a certified private teacher in the Netherlands?
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Postby Dr. John Zeigler - PEP Ed » Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:18 am

mirjam wrote:Well, I cannot speak for Europe, but it's a fact that in The Netherlands Alfred's Basic Piano and Hal Leonard piano method are mainly used. Of course, these methods talk about intervals, but intervallic reading, like found in Celebrate piano or Music Tree isn't known here (no one uses these methods). A 'modern' Dutch piano method that just came out again starts in middle c-position and step by step new notes are added. It seems to me that teachers (in general) just use the methods they know and 'since the children do like Alfred', why bother looking for other things?

The question of methods and their proper use (or lack thereof) is another matter - one which we've tried to deal with in many different places on the site, but particularly in our Teaching Studio. I suspect that use of methods and techniques that teachers already know is one thing that's pretty constant the world over.

One can take that statement at least a couple ways, both of which are probably valid to some degree. On the one hand, use of a method or methods make life easier on the teacher; on the other, he or she may develop great teaching talent by using a method over time. That can benefit students.

Intervalic reading is one of the many reasons we like Music Tree, though we've pointed out that the method is getting pretty old and is in need of an update. Of course, other methods embody intervalic reading as well. I wonder how common it is elsewhere that intervalic reading isn't used much.
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Postby Tranquillo » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:19 pm

Intervalic reading is one of the many reasons we like Music Tree, though we've pointed out that the method is getting pretty old and is in need of an update. Of course, other methods embody intervalic reading as well. I wonder how common it is elsewhere that intervalic reading isn't used much.

Here in Australia there is a method called "Dulcie Holland" - devised by an Australian teacher, working wtih the exam board requirements for sightreading. That book itself encourages intervallic reading.
But later on in a students learning, through the grading system here in Australia by grade 7, piano students are to know how to sight sing. Is this taught anywhere else? To sight sing ...even though one plays piano?
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Postby suisseadele » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:39 am

Becibu wrote:
Intervalic reading is one of the many reasons we like Music Tree, though we've pointed out that the method is getting pretty old and is in need of an update. Of course, other methods embody intervalic reading as well. I wonder how common it is elsewhere that intervalic reading isn't used much.

Here in Australia there is a method called "Dulcie Holland" - devised by an Australian teacher, working wtih the exam board requirements for sightreading. That book itself encourages intervallic reading.
But later on in a students learning, through the grading system here in Australia by grade 7, piano students are to know how to sight sing. Is this taught anywhere else? To sight sing ...even though one plays piano?

But later on in a students learning, through the grading system here in Australia by grade 7, piano students are to know how to sight sing. Is this taught anywhere else? To sight sing ...even though one plays piano? [quote]
Sorry to disagree with you Becibu, but if you are referring to the AMEB a candidate is not expected to sight sing in the aural component of the exam. For 7th Grade the student is given approx one minute to memorise a two-bar melodic phrase from a printed copy away from the instrument, the candidate will then play OR sing the phrase from memory. The examiner will sound the keynote before the phrase is memorised. All my piano students play the example on the piano. (Still difficult enough). Where there is singing OR humming, it is after a melody has been played twice by the examiner and the candidate must attempt to reproduce it.
With reference to intervallic reading, I and some of my colleagues certainly use this method as well as learning the names of notes. No method is exclusively the best. Here in Australia I would think most teachers are very open to new ways of teaching. Not every teacher prepares students only for exams, certainly some do but from my experience most teachers have a mix of students, some desiring to work hard and do exams, others who just want to learn without the pressure of exams. By the way, we have several exam bodies in Australia, the AMEB, ANZCA, Guild, St. Cecilia's and one can also do the English exams such as Trinity, ABRSM . Suzuki Method is also very popular. Apologies if I have omitted any. Sorry if this is too long. I may write sometime later on my experiences of music in schools in Australia as I think it may be different from state to state.
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Postby Tranquillo » Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:25 pm

Sorry to disagree with you Becibu, but if you are referring to the AMEB a candidate is not expected to sight sing in the aural component of the exam. For 7th Grade the student is given approx one minute to memorise a two-bar melodic phrase from a printed copy away from the instrument, the candidate will then play OR sing the phrase from memory. The examiner will sound the keynote before the phrase is memorised. All my piano students play the example on the piano. (Still difficult enough). Where there is singing OR humming, it is after a melody has been played twice by the examiner and the candidate must attempt to reproduce it.


A teacher in Aussie! Great! I'm not the only person! You're right about the aurals on grade 7 ... I was slightly confused a friend of mine who did do her grade 7 told me she had to know how to sight sing for her grade 7 exam. (she didnt do the exam but she worked to it). But person told me he didnt need to sightsing ... thats for clearing that up. I am doing theory not musicainship ... but I have heard to know how to sightsinging for musicainship ... is that so?


With reference to intervallic reading, I and some of my colleagues certainly use this method as well as learning the names of notes. No method is exclusively the best. Here in Australia I would think most teachers are very open to new ways of teaching. Not every teacher prepares students only for exams, certainly some do but from my experience most teachers have a mix of students, some desiring to work hard and do exams, others who just want to learn without the pressure of exams. By the way, we have several exam bodies in Australia, the AMEB, ANZCA, Guild, St. Cecilia's and one can also do the English exams such as Trinity, ABRSM . Suzuki Method is also very popular. Apologies if I have omitted any. Sorry if this is too long. I may write sometime later on my experiences of music in schools in Australia as I think it may be different from state to state.


Its great that you mention several exam bodies. I have only just started looking into them after my singing teacher mentioned them. Do you allow your students to pick between them. I am relatively new to other examboards.

Its true what you say about teachers being open to different methods in Australia, that there is no set method. However noticed in my experience with teachers in the past and that I have spoken to, many do prepare students for exams. (and mainly AMEB exams). Exams in the end are optional to all students. My piano teacher has students that dont exams but he still gets them to polish pieces from grade books as if there was an exam then moves on.
I am intrigued to how other teachers privatly teach in Aussie. I am accustomed to teachers teaching according to exams and if not teaching repertoire of examboards.

As far as music in schools do you teach in music in schools Suieddale? If so what state? I am in NSW and as far as I know it differs from state to state. Do you teach in a school? or Privately or both?
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